Counting on Your$elf: A Woman’s Way to Wholistic Wealth: Kirpal Gordon Interviews Author Jackie Henrion

 

Counting on Your$elf: A Woman’s Way to Wholistic Wealth

An Interview with Author Jackie Henrion

 

KIRPAL GORDON: The first thing that impressed me about Counting on Your$elf is that the content you deliver is content that you have lived through and synthesized into an action plan. For me, the swing from the first husband (inarticulate) to the second husband (fully engaged) really demonstrates one of the many benefits of your wholistic approach.

 

JACKIE HENRION: The roots of the book go back to my divorce from my first husband. One of the ways I decided to regain my footing was to take a full financial inventory of my life, using the analytical tools I had learned during my MBA and used throughout a twenty-year business career. Later, when I met my second husband, I analyzed both of our financial situations using the same tools. Over time I began referring to this process as the Financial Selfie™—a clear, honest snapshot of where you stand financially.

As our life together unfolded, I also deepened my study of contemplative practices: yoga, Vipassana meditation, and mindfulness. These disciplines helped me see that a fulfilling life includes far more than money alone. Out of that realization I developed the concept of Mind Money™, a way of recognizing and valuing the non-financial assets in our lives—things like relationships, experiences, insights, and personal growth that influence the decisions we make every day.

I began sharing this framework informally with friends and family. Eventually I started explaining it to my granddaughters, and that’s when I realized how rarely women are taught to integrate financial literacy with deeper reflection about life choices. That realization pushed me to organize these ideas into a book.

What turned out to be challenging was bringing together two worlds that are usually kept separate: finance and mindfulness. There is also a section of the book that explores how our deeper beliefs about money can influence our confidence and stress levels. For me these connections feel natural, but I’ve come to realize they are unusual for many readers. Finding the right tone—both practical and reflective—was an important part of writing the book.

A turning point came when I read the work of Dr. Daniel Siegel on the science of mindfulness. I use his definition of the mind—the regulation of energy and information—as a starting point. In the book I expand on that idea and suggest that if we think of money as a form of energy, our life choices become easier to understand and manage. That perspective puts us back in the driver’s seat of our own lives. The possibility of helping more women recognize that level of agency is incredibly exciting to me.

 

KIRPAL GORDON: I appreciated the philosophical attitude adjustment content and the specific practical guidelines as well. The idea that women could teach men how to be smarter financially knocked me out. It flips the stereotypical script that men are money earners and women are money burners.

 

JACKIE HENRION: Many people recognize that trope from the familiar “men are from Mars, women are from Venus” style of humor. But I was reminded how persistent it still is during a dinner with friends.

We walked past a clothing store and the wife said jokingly, “It’s not like I need any more clothes.” Her husband laughed and said, “Did you hear that? Let’s get that in writing.” Everyone chuckled, but later I thought about how that kind of remark reflects a subtle cultural assumption that women are the spenders while men are the responsible earners.

Often the response to questioning that assumption is, “Lighten up—it’s just a joke.” But our culture has long used humor to normalize stereotypes—Polish jokes, Jewish jokes, jokes about women. Humor can reveal attitudes that linger beneath the surface.

In recent years our society has been confronted with wave after wave of revelations about the abuse and mistreatment of women. If we want those patterns to change, women must feel empowered in every dimension of their lives, including financial decision-making. Our expectations for our futures need to look different.

That’s one reason the class I teach at Utah Tech’s Institute for Continued Learning is currently designed for women only. The ideas in the book would certainly be useful for men as well, and perhaps I will eventually teach a men’s class. But many women feel more comfortable discussing financial uncertainty or knowledge gaps in a supportive environment among peers. Interestingly, I also suggest in the book that if men learn this framework, it could become a powerful foundation for healthier relationships. A shared understanding of money and life priorities builds trust within a partnership.

 

KIRPAL GORDON: The value of your career in business and your interest in meditation come through on every page. But I also know of your background in music and songwriting. Is there a connection to this subject?

JACKIE HENRION: There actually is. Learning this framework improves your ability to improvise in life, especially during crises or major transitions. When you begin to think of money as energy, you gain confidence in your ability to regulate it. Energy has rhythms and patterns. Sometimes things rise; sometimes they fall. Learning to recognize and ride those economic waves is a bit like music—understanding rhythm, chords, chord families, and then choosing your own melodic line.

During my own study of mindfulness, there was a moment when it felt as though I had walked through a door. The persistent internal voice saying “something is wrong with me” began to fade. Instead, I realized that I could enter any situation trusting that what I am and what I know is enough. I stopped over-preparing for everything and began trusting that growth and learning are part of every experience. In the complexity of real life, this framework provides a simple feedback loop. It lets you see your own growth over time.

Another book that influenced me is psychotherapist Charlotte Kasl’s If the Buddha Got Stuck. She describes how many of us become “stuck” because of our experiences and conditioning. What the Financial Selfie framework allows you to do is observe your own stuckness—much like noticing sensations during meditation. Not to criticize yourself, but simply to acknowledge where you are and allow space for movement and change. The confidence that comes from that awareness is electric. Instead of saying, “That’s cool,” I like to say, “That’s fluid.”

 

KIRPAL GORDON: I liked the workbook aspect of Counting on Your$elf. Did you include that to stimulate fluidity between reading and responding?

 

JACKIE HENRION:

That’s an insightful observation using the word “fluidity.” The book is designed to create exactly that kind of movement between reading and responding. Throughout Counting On Yourself, readers can rate individual paragraphs from 1 to 10, allowing them to pause and notice immediately whether an idea resonates.

On the website, countingonyourselfcom, readers can also contribute to a Resonance Index, where they register their responses and gradually see how other women react to the same material. Over time it becomes a kind of collective reflection on the ideas in the book.

The workbook, now in development, grows out of the notes and slides from my classes. It’s designed for readers who may not be able to attend in person, offering exercises that help strengthen the habits of thinking and feeling that shape financial decisions. And for readers who prefer not to build spreadsheets themselves, the website also offers downloadable templates for the Financial Selfie™ tools.  

KIRPAL GORDON: May I add the click for purchase (Counting On Yourself: A Woman’s Way to Wholistic Wealth : Henrion, Jackie: Amazon.com.au: Books) and for more information, your website Jackie Henrion -? Thank you, Jackie.

Getting Sandpointed: A Conversation with Jackie Henrion

 

Getting Sandpointed: A Conversation with Jackie Henrion

 

KIRPAL GORDON: Reading the poetry collection, Sandpointed, I wonder if the community in Sandpoint, Idaho, knows you from your weekly radio broadcast you host and curate, “Songs-Voices-Poems,” every Sunday at 7 PM on KRFY 88.5? I ask because the book is like an extension of your radio show! What also knocked me out is this back cover blurb from the town mayor’s wife Katie Greenland: “Sandpointed is a wise women’s collective weaving of place, presence, and possibility. At once a portrait of sassy poetics, a song of seasonal survivance, and a recipe for medicinal brew sure to tantalize any literary appetite. Written by a royal flush of witty and playful writers well-versed in lettered seduction. A soul-nourishing read.” Quite skillful of you and your writing group to get your town represented in the arts!

 

JACKIE HENRION: We were thrilled to have her endorsement. Katie and her husband, Shelby Rognstad, are not only supporters of the arts but they are courageous thought leaders, and devoted parents to their two children. As part of her doctorate studies in Leadership from Gonzaga, she now conducts presentations and workshops around the world about the power of women’s stories. In fact, the other endorsements at the front of the book are from a number of potent women in the Sandpoint arts community: Carol Deaner from the Pend Oreille Arts Council, Karin Wedemeyer, founder of the Sandpoint Music Conservatory and Suzy Prez, Manager of 88.5 KRFY.

 

KIRPAL GORDON: It appears this group has a long history. Why did you decide to publish a book now?

 

JACKIE HENRION: With covid restrictions and shutdowns, the women of the Sandpoint Monday Writers decided we would stop meeting for a while. Our long-term meeting place, Foster’s Crossing, an artistically quirky antique mall and restaurant, closed. We missed each other. We also missed the weekly practice: writing extemporaneously to prompts, witnessing our feelings, and giving wings to our creativity. In 2022, we decided to reinstate the meetings at the new Monarch Mountain Coffee, recently relocated to the heart of downtown Sandpoint. The book honors the writing process and this moment in time—our moment in time when women’s voices are at the crest of a cultural tsunami.

 

Jackie Henrion, Rhoda Sanford, Sandy Lamson, Robens Napolitan, Desiree Aguirre, Sandra Rasor

KIRPAL GORDON: Cultural tsunami? How so?

 

JACKIE HENRION: The most evident tsunami is that of high-profile figures held to account for their abuse of power for sexual ends. Women are challenging traditions around the globe, most evidently in the Middle East, on the African continent, and in France. During the covid shutdowns we had more time to reflect how human culture is changing in many related ways. For example, younger generations are showing us how to be more fluid in our identities, our jobs, and our families. In over a decade of Monday morning writing sessions, we also see changes in our language. We have matured in our perspective, occupying more space and holding the interspace for other women; less judgmental and more nuanced in our observations. Not just about poetic details but about ourselves. In a way, we are more forgiving of our formative conditions. Aging together makes us laugh more about our hair color, weight, families, memory lapses, and pets. Sandy Lamson’s piece, “The Oldest Bike,” is evocative in this way: ...“it leans against the wall to witness everything going on. The oldest bike in Sandpoint is envious; the last time it tried to see and hear everything, someone pushed it outside, where it fell into a crumpled heap from which it could not extricate itself without assistance. It was very embarrassing.”

 

KIRPAL GORDON: How did you discover or decide on the title Sandpointed?

 

JACKIE HENRION: We stretched the town’s name to a descriptive term to increase its stickiness. If you know a little about the literary history of the Northwest, you will have heard of Richard Hugo, the revered poetry professor at Montana State Bozeman, memorialized by the Hugo House in Seattle. He wrote a book called The Triggering Town, about his poetic philosophy. The resultant dominant cultural legacy from Seattle’s University of Washington out to the plains of Montana, is place-based. Certainly in Sandpoint, our creative language can’t help but include the geography, such as my poem “Lake This.”

“The lake exudes a tufted sailing regatta, lofted

Scrims wafting, floating, coasting along

The viscous surface about to be ice.

Like tall ships and small craft, drifting in the Northward breeze

Stately procession, over immobilized waves. Ducks

Dive, punctuating the edge of the crust periodically, Purposefully."

 

Or Desiree’s story about Marburl, the lone post-apocalyptic figure who accumulates family on his way to the remembered safety of Sandpoint. In this way one can see Sandpoint as an enclave of hope where men and women can navigate new streams from their regional cultural lineage.

 

KIRPAL GORDON: The reputation of North Idaho and the extremist community called the American Redoubt movement have grabbed headlines in the recent past.

 

JACKIE HENRION: They are a noisy minority. But our group chooses to focus instead on authentic experiences and communal sensibilities. This book amplifies our shared experiences. We wish to become louder, inspire others. We write about this place and the paradox and diversity of viewpoints found here. We embrace them all. Writing our first and best thoughts, reading them to each other, and acknowledging each other happens quietly, yet profoundly, every week.

 

KIRPAL GORDON: Does the Sandpoint community know that you received your MFA degree from the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa University? I ask because your poetry project reflects a commitment to make community wherever you are, which the original JKSDP program directors, Allen Ginsberg and Anne Waldman, powerfully espoused. How did your degree from Naropa affect this project?

 

JACKIE HENRION: Although my work at Naropa influenced my language, our writing group uses the concepts through osmosis. At Naropa, I experimented with writing tools that helped me rise above cliches and think more poetically from Eleni Sikelianos. I also learned much about women’s writing and philosophy in Gabrielle Civil's class, discovering my lineage of the interspace and bridging through Dickinson, Anzaldúa, Perloff, and others. From Anne Waldman, I learned how politics begins and ends with personal sensations. But more than anything, I absorbed the value of continuing focus and energy: The “vow to poetry,” Anne describes. To learn the fundamentals of eloquent expression, then to value it enough to go to print, is a kind of sacred rite. As a result, it has been a delight to work with Laura Wahl at Turtlemoon Publishing, whose underlying mission is to publish women's stories and work. My MFA from Naropa helped me navigate the curating, editing, publishing, and marketing arenas more confidently. But all this knowledge fits within my parallel study of meditation and mind.

 

KIRPAL GORDON: Can you say more about your study of mind?

 

JACKIE HENRION: Before I went to Naropa, I had experience with meditation, and my undergraduate degree was in psychology. Then I encountered the work of psychologist Daniel J. Siegel. His concepts provide a framework and tools to integrate all of this knowledge in a helpful way for writing. I will mention only two here. His “wheel of awareness” describes four areas of insight critical to growth: the five senses, sensory awareness of subtle internal body processes, our thoughts and emotions, and finally, interpersonal dynamics. We can rise above the conventional when writers integrate language in these areas.

            The second is what I see as original innocence. When we start to discover ourselves through writing, we are more compassionate if we understand that we, and others, are formed from our DNA and circumstances. We learn how to survive through our formative environments.  For example, Robens’ poem, “Where God Lives,” is a poignant artifact of her upbringing as a minister's daughter.

“In my palms, the heat of suppressed youth

pulsed and ran up past the restricting cuffs

of my Sunday dress into my restless arms.”

 

When we become more self-aware through these writing processes, we learn that we can choose our actions and words differently with a focus of attention. Then our writing can take wings poetically. Our resultant growth and integration and provides something valuable for readers.

 

 

KIRPAL GORDON: How do you see that shaking out for readers of Sandpointed?

 

JACKIE HENRION: I see it as a kind of chamber music. The unique thing we have found through the group is a resonance of words and concepts. We achieve this resonance through one of our processes: collecting a list of words during the month which we use directly or for inspiration. In our writing, you can hear a repetition or echo in the finished pieces. Like the first poem by Desiree Aguirre mentions porcupines, so does one of my poems. You will also encounter some “recipes” from different writers. These repetitions are random and individually filtered yet pull the work together: a collection of “Wild Minds” at work. Like music, it takes time to absorb the vibrational qualities. Rhoda's Sanford's last poem in the book, “Give It Some Time,” is an apt invocation:

“...savor the taste,

feel the richness.

Relax into the pungent whisper of fulfillment.”

 

 Hopefully, it will inspire people to take this home and start writing groups of their own. It can be transformative---in the most subtle and fundamental ways.

 

KIRPAL GORDON: How can readers find the book?

 

JACKIE HENRION: It’s available on Amazon as well as in local shops (https://a.co/d/9o0OHWh). Many come to Sandpoint to enjoy skiing, the lake amenities, hunting, fishing, and scenery. But this book is a gift to yourself or someone else about real people who live here, their interior landscape, their hopes for growth, and ultimately their courage to share their work.

 

Creating "Songs-Voices-Poems," a Radio Show: Jackie Henrion Interviewed by Kirpal Gordon

Jackie Henrion at the KRFY 88.5 broadcast desk

Kirpal Gordon:  “Songs-Voices-Poems” is big fun and a great use of radio in our screen-obsessed culture. It also suggests, as opera loving Ezra Pound said, “Lyrics and music are one, not two.” What led to the creation of the show?

 

Jackie Henrion: Most things I do tend to start with curiosity. In the spring of 2014 I saw that the local public radio station was starting a training program and I was curious about the station. I knew many of the people there already and when I went to the initial session I liked the community.  It was diverse in the same way my hometown of Greenwich Village was. 

 

I had been a strange, Suzuki Bean kind of kid growing up on Bleecker Street. I memorized Poe's “Annabelle Lee” as a small child and I remember the look on my parents’ faces when I recited it to them. They asked why that poem, and I said I just liked the sound. It was not uncommon for my parents to have readings and art happenings in their living room by poets such as Howard Hart and Bob Nichols and I devoured Lear's Limericks and the Golden Books of Poetry and the beautiful graphically illustrated Illiad and Oddysey. While trained in classical music, I was also drawn to the lyrics of folk songs such as Peter Paul and Mary's “The Great Mandella,” which was the first song I ever learned to play. I also was fascinated by French songs, playing and translating Le Deserteur for my Junior High School French class.

 

So after the training at the station about FCC regulations and how to operate the equipment, which wasn't any different than the equipment I had used for my folk song production and performances since 1995, I shared my thoughts about a show. I submitted a proposal and sample show. The one comment I received was that I needed to put more of myself into the show. So I started to think more deeply about song lyrics and how the best lyrics were crafted like poems. The title went from "Poems With Wings" to the broader (and less cute) title of “Songs-Voices-Poems.” 

the original logo/banner

the current logo/banner

 

Kirpal Gordon: I noticed that each show is different. How do you decide what to feature?

 

Jackie Henrion: Each week I think of a theme for the show. I just keep my mind open for a subject that has caught my attention, or something I've been studying, a news event, local happenings in Sandpoint, Idaho, or people I interact with who are still in NYC. Perhaps the group of writers I meet with each week, where we do extemporaneous, timed writings and readings, has given me the confidence that every moment in life contains a myriad of creative possibilities. Like Dickinson said, I dwell in possibility. Then I research our extensive radio library for illustrative songs. I then use the incredible resources available on the internet such as poetry.org, UPenn's sound recordings and others for relevant poems. For the poetry, I reach out to the authors to request permission to use material on the show. As a result, I have corresponded with all kinds of poets from Charles Bernstein, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Amy King, to Mark Toby. I also have corresponded with the BBC, the 92nd Street Y and the Nuyorican Poets Cafe for audio permissions. You see, our public radio license only covers music available through standard commercial copyright channels. 

 

I spend 15 to 20 hours to create a rough script for the show that weaves relevant information cohesively. I like to write the script early in the week, so as the week progresses, I can edit it to a more relaxed, less stentorian, less pedagogical tone. Then I go to the station every Sunday evening and do the show live after checking the song lists, uploading and sound-adjusting any spoken verse. We don't have separate engineers, so I run the boards during the broadcast which goes from 7 to 8 pm. I like the challenge of radio to make something entertaining yet interesting and informative and perhaps even inspirational.

 

Kirpal Gordon: Say more about what you mean by inspirational.

 

Jackie Henrion: I mean that it might inspire the audience to think of things differently. One of the characteristics I value most about poetry is the presentation of a different perspective. Many people don't get the opportunity to become aware that their own personal reality is an illusion. Some come to that awareness through inebriants or even psychotropics.  Me, I find a little sleep deprivation helps to realize how we create reality and have a kind of double torus rotation of energy that is constantly testing outside reality and altering internal beliefs accordingly, as well as the even more potent reverse: Our beliefs alter reality.  With that in mind, I appreciate the challenge of modern poetry to co-create meaning. 

 

Dar Williams and Jackie Henrion

 

Kirpal Gordon: Some critics have suggested that songs and poems are different genres entirely and a good poem and a good song are not comparable. 

 

Jackie Henrion: I've tried to drop the words "good" and "bad" from my lexicon. I am drawn to the concepts of spectra, wave form distributions and Venn diagrams, even as I acknowledge the possibility of platonic beauty and truth. It's a paradox I embrace. This is getting pretty headsy, but much of our cultural discussion takes the form of dialectic, logic, either/or propositions. Those who study and absorb these propositions value that approach. It has the appearance of intelligence. But what I try to do on my show is to illustrate that shared characteristics improve both. Well crafted song lyrics are as potent as any poem and most poems call on a sense of music or sometimes visual arts to engage. My perspective is that commercial pressures to appeal to the broadest population results in pop products. If I were to avoid the use of the term 'bad', I would say that pop lies on the opposite side of the spectrum of creative, expressive arts. But at any moment, an artist may choose any point on the infinitely variable spectrum to suit their needs.

 

An example of a songwriter who has used the craft of poetry extensively is Dar Williams in her song Iowa:

 

Well I had everything,

I gave it up for the shoulder of your driveway

And the words I'd never felt.

And so for you I've come this far

Across the tracks,

Ten miles above the limit and with no seatbelt

(And I'd do it again.)

For tonight I went running

Through the screen door of discretion

As I woke up from a nightmare

That I could not bear to see;

You were wandering out on the fields of Iowa

And you were not thinking of me...

 

I've talked with Dar about her process and she is very much into the conversation between fine arts, poetry, internal philosophy and her songs.

 

 

Kirpal Gordon: No question—the wide commercial appeal impulse, often at odds with what makes the work art, can dumb down the authenticity of a lyric and weaken its power of witness. Perhaps in a more niche-driven market, there may be less need to sell millions of copies and more need to build community. Which leads me back to the radio show, which certainly appeals to a niche audience yet is available to millions of listeners. I like the use of the word "Voices" in your title. Say more about that.

 

Jackie Henrion: Actually in the development of the show title, I considered 'songs versus poems' in a didactic sense. A sound tease went through my mind to pronounce it like the native New Yorker I am, and then realized it sounded like 'voices.' I realized that title gave me a chance to discuss voices both physically and metaphorically. Since I've studied with numerous vocal coaches, I felt that it enabled me to explore the keening quality produced in women's voices like Souad Massi's "Raoui" to Joanne Shanendaoah's Native American chants to Enya's Celtic stylings, to Baltic throat singers. In my studies I have learned that, in Ancient Greece, women were banned from keening at funerals because it would diminish the capability to raise armies. Metaphorically, the possible discussion of the uniqueness of one's voice is crucial to discovering how our language is so populated by short-cuts, that we don't pay attention to our choice of words. 

 

Kirpal Gordon: Are there any podcasts of the shows that folks can hear?

 

Jackie Henrion: Unfortunately, no. At this point the format of my show includes material restricted by copyright laws. While our public radio station pays a certain minimal amount which we hope finds its way to the rights holders, we do not have rights to re-podcast the material. For now I like the fact that what I do is ephemeral, kind of like performance art. But, like the old days, you can hear the show on KRFY 88.5 fm or via Internet stream every Sunday at 7 pm pacific. It can also be picked up by going to KRFY.org "live streaming" or Tune-In radio. But someday I may chose to focus my energy on using my scripts and song lists to create a published work. 

 

Kirpal Gordon: I remember hearing you sing and play guitar in a folk music context that I found refreshing and innovative. How has hosting “Songs-Voices-Poems” affected your own work?

 

 

 

Jackie Henrion: During the last two years, my exposure to poetry has broadened considerably. My most recent experiments involve reciting my songs as spoken word along with the guitar accompaniment. I have also started writing more abstractly, using tools that create a randomness of syntax and thought. I became interested in the works of Gertrude Stein and Louis Zukofsky. So I've stopped performing for a while, while I am in a kind of transition and discovery process.

 

Kirpal Gordon: Stein and Zukofsky! I got my first real taste of both writers while studying at Naropa’s Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics.

 

Jackie Henrion: Interesting, perhaps a peek of unified field. Because I will be applying to Naropa's low residency MFA in Creative Writing for the fall of 2016. And the reason was partially because I read the Giant Steps Press interview of David Cope describing his experience with Alan Ginsberg at Naropa. I was drawn to the humanness of his remembrances and the honoring of artistry which passes from a teacher to a student. I checked into the writings of the Naropa professors and I have particular projects that would benefit from exposure to their guidance. In addition, I am really excited about the integration of contemplative philosophies within the curriculum. I've practiced Vipassana meditation for many years and it has colored my work. When I met you over 10 years ago, I felt that "field" from you and a respect for your focus and energy.  I appreciate the time you have allocated to do this interview. 

 

Kirpal Gordon: Likewise, Jackie! A unified field! Well said! Grazie.